tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post7078550693314207515..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: When the GM RollsAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-23438736043756816402010-11-04T01:28:30.105-04:002010-11-04T01:28:30.105-04:00I think I'm oddly all right with a GM fudging ...I think I'm oddly all right with a GM fudging a die roll so long as the GM is good enough I can't prove it was done.<br /><br />I know that sometimes I will roll dice when it means nothing, as a cheap psychological trick. I've done it less often over the years because I've been doing less die rolling overall.<br /><br />In theory, if I roll dice as a GM, I should be all right with any outcome. In practice -- well, I remember one session, years ago, when all of us decided, unanimously, that we just didn't like the result the dice called for. So, we overruled the dice.<br /><br />Now, it's certainly valid to look at that as a failure of the system, or of our judgment about when to roll the dice. But, and I think this is another part of why fudging doesn't always bug me, it's also valid to look at the whole process as a way of forming consensus. We now know what we want. The dice are an odd tool to help us figure that out, but that is what happened.<br /><br />Currently, I'm running straight Call of Cthulhu, the Tatters of the King campaign. Someone suggested I make Sanity rolls for a bunch of NPCs. I did not roll for the one case I had planned. But, I did roll for all of the other NPCs that sort of popped up (folks were at a play, and it turned out that everyone decided to go with a date, not just the one PC I knew would do so). I had no Sanity stats for the NPCs, and I think we sort of agreed that 50% was a good ball park figure. Those rolls I made honestly, as I was okay with any result, and we got some unexpected results there.Lisa Padolnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-8274005089246077842010-10-19T19:34:50.870-04:002010-10-19T19:34:50.870-04:00A few years ago, I was running a home-brew FATE fa...A few years ago, I was running a home-brew FATE fantasy game. I almost never rolled the dice. Almost all of my monsters had a combat score like Great or Superb or Epic and I told the players to "beat them or they beat you". It worked very well.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158916950442942918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-62975982976013426002010-10-19T15:42:56.498-04:002010-10-19T15:42:56.498-04:00Lots of good fodder here, as always. But the thing...Lots of good fodder here, as always. But the thing that jumped at me the most is your example about the psychological/drama value of the GM grabbing a handful of d10s vs. rolling a d20.<br /><br />I haven't had a lifetime of exposure to D&D, so often when the GM gives us a hint of what an adversary looks like - or when something just blatantly shows up in our path - most of the folks at the table can suss out what monster it is simply from years of using the MM. But most of the time, the oh-shit level of difference between an ettin and a displacer beast is totally lost on me. So, my oh-shit is based on my secondhand reaction to everyone else's.<br /><br />But in a dice pool system, when the GM pulls out a fistful of dice to represent an adversary's potency, I'm totally able to feel the oh-shit moment without ever having to know anything at all about the average threat level of the baddie based on my knowledge of the MM.<br /><br />I don't really have a point here - but I suppose it does speak to the notion that if/how/when a GM rolls dice has a big effect on the drama of play.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-16585250938221919102010-10-19T14:46:38.817-04:002010-10-19T14:46:38.817-04:00I spent a lot of time running the SAGA system, and...I spent a lot of time running the SAGA system, and it was my first introduction to games in which the GM doesn't roll... until I realized it wasn't. I hardly ever rolled when running certain previous campaigns, either, just because I wanted to put the emphasis on the characters versus the world. That is, certain things DO happen unless the characters are there to change things.<br /><br />I'll write more about this on Gameplaywright, but I often turn to the dice as a GM to use them as fair oracles. When I concoct two different possible outcomes to a PC action, I call for a die roll—often from the players, but sometimes from me—just to get that telemetry from fate. I could just choose, but sometimes getting the impartial input of chance validates the unexpected AS unexpected. As said above, it makes it feel like a collaboration has happened, rather than a decision on my part. Instead of me, the GM, deciding, we're all reconciling our imaginary story with the inscrutable hand of the die.Will Hindmarchhttp://www.wordstudio.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-37603498534985637042010-10-19T13:40:33.192-04:002010-10-19T13:40:33.192-04:00I've found in games where the GM doesn't r...I've found in games where the GM doesn't roll, players are more ok with failure. It feel less like something that is done to them and more a risk they chose to take to get what they want.<br /><br />It can also create a sense of openness and fairness. <br /><br />As a GM, I also find it cuts down on handling time.jenskothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11904786056073226766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-52378819926723774542010-10-19T12:48:19.636-04:002010-10-19T12:48:19.636-04:00One advantage of the idea that the DM always rolls...One advantage of the idea that the DM always rolls the dice is that players get less concerned about the mechanics of the game. A lot of my early games as a player were like that so I probably view rolling the die as the gamemaster's perogative. Certainly, as a player I don't miss not rolling the dice.<br /><br />I do know that I often feel strange when gamemastering The DM Never Rolls games. A lot of it is the psychological impact of "I want to play too." But a lot is the fact that I want the dice to be an oracle of what is happening.<br /><br />One little considered benefit of both sides roll in a game design is that it generally flattens the bell curve, meaning the more extreme results (eg critical vs fumble) are less likely to occur.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-55329652143069394512010-10-19T11:47:42.160-04:002010-10-19T11:47:42.160-04:00"What it does signal, at least to my mind, is..."What it does signal, at least to my mind, is that the GM is now subjecting himself to the rules."<br /><br />Bang on. At the point when the GM's dice hit the table, the GM is no longer the main guiding force of the world but rather just another player. And as a GM, I find rolling dice tedious - especially when there are 30 minion types trying to pull down the heroes through sheer numbers.<br /><br />I like to fall back on my LARP philosophy: Using the rules is your final fallback position in the world of the story. Theatre-Style LARPers tend to emphasize storytelling, and I've inherited that in some aspects of my GMing. So if the players can't work out the story themselves, only then do you bring the rules in and start rolling dice. With this idea, rolling dice almost feels like failure, though in a dice-intensive game like D&D you really can't avoid it.<br /><br />Also, I think the Amber Diceless RPG deserves a mention here. I like it because the fixed mechanics force the players to change the type of conflict during play and come up with scenarios that will be advantageous to their characters. Granted, some player maneuvering can get a little contrived, but it changes the player's creative emphasis from character building (D&D: "This feat and this power work well together, so I'll add it to my combat options list") to playing (Amber: "How can I trick Oberon into giving me his Trump deck since he can completely pants me in Warfare?").<br /><br />The GM almost needs to place the opposite emphasis - D&D requires more focus on improvisational playing since any combat could cause a TPK though a run of bad luck, while Amber requires more up-front design with flow charts since much of the conflict outcome is pre-determined. I'm not trying to draw a hard line here since both design and play skills are central to a GM's role, but rather focus on some of the subtleties.<br /><br />Taken to an extreme, the question of the GM using dice in the game (I'm thinking both GM and Player dice use here) turns into sort of a design-time vs. run-time philosophy question. Does the GM fit the characters into the overall story design and run combat as more of a storytelling exercise with a pre-determined outcome, or does the GM let the dice fall where they may and deal with the (possibly unanticipated) consequences?<br /><br />Hm. I wasn't sure where I was going with this comment, but I find there's more to think about on the idea of dice use vs. game design...Jim Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10238994819794067525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-44293834838649323532010-10-19T11:31:13.947-04:002010-10-19T11:31:13.947-04:00That's part of my desire for rolling the dice....That's part of my desire for rolling the dice. All the people at the table are players, even if we give one a title. Yes, I'm the GM, but I still want to play the same game as everyone else at the table.<br /><br />The other thing that I dislike about the GM-never-rolls games is it artificially highlights the separation of roles in the game. In all these types of games that I've played, (and even some arguments I've heard from people who like these types of games), it's implied (or directly stated) that will free up the GM to focus on bringing the story. This simply reinforces the division of the narrative: it's the GM's story and we're just playing in it. The games I (and my group) enjoy playing have shared narrative control. Why would I want to put up barriers to that?Thomas Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-90195876177046882852010-10-19T11:17:39.057-04:002010-10-19T11:17:39.057-04:00I'm not sure what this portends, but is post h...I'm not sure what this portends, but is post has me contrasting these two things in my head:<br /><br />GM: Something is about to happen. Roll the dice!<br />Player: I got an 11.<br />GM: Okay! The goblin pops up and...<br /><br />Vs<br /><br />Player: Something is about to happen. Roll the dice!<br />GM: I got an 11.<br />Player: Okay! I pop up and...Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08362641974657304051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-56406048480076832642010-10-19T10:36:04.921-04:002010-10-19T10:36:04.921-04:00@jess Oh, excellent thought.@jess Oh, excellent thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-25677340810157450802010-10-19T10:10:59.996-04:002010-10-19T10:10:59.996-04:00What about the psychological difference of having ...What about the psychological difference of having one player (The GM), not rolling the dice with the players. Maybe requiring the GM to roll to do stuff just like the players puts her on more friendly ground with the players? <br /><br />"We're all playing the same game here. I've got to roll for my guys too!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com