tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post6333671533928073362..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: The Root of Some EvilAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-9873997480942572272011-05-20T15:30:37.920-04:002011-05-20T15:30:37.920-04:00I think I may steal this topic for my own post. I...I think I may steal this topic for my own post. I have many thoughts on money.<br /><br />One thing I've wrestled with for years is how to come up with a reasonable system of "monthly maintenance" that is not a (literal) bookkeeping chore. One of my relatively recent discoveries was a couple of systems that simply do not allow you to keep wealth. Whatever treasure you earn during an adventure is considered to be either re-invested in your character (new gear or training, for example), stashed in a secret place (and only accessible in the abstract), or blown on ale and whores. Each adventure you start with a few coins, and your gear, which is determined through other game stats. FantasyCraft has probably the best iteration of these rules that I've seen.<br /><br />I have run into huge problems with the economies in D&D 3.x. The whole system is designed to suck your cash away as fast as you earn it. We just recently folded a campaign in which we'd hit 14th level. And yet, I think only one character had more than 1,000gp to his name. All this adventuring, and we were nowhere near rich (unless, of course, we'd sold off our magic items). Even more than castles and whatnot, I want my character to become <b>rich</b> and covered in <b>luxuries</b>. It is staggering how hard that is.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-25348664268494916612011-05-17T21:20:39.818-04:002011-05-17T21:20:39.818-04:00In my old D&D campaign, silver* only gave you ...In my old D&D campaign, silver* only gave you experience if it was actually spent on something that supports your class/status. The obvious example is building a stronghold, but it also extends to things like purchasing magical supplies and laboratories, libraries, maintaining troops, building schools and temples, or even something like paying for instruction at a school** (or building one).<br /><br />Which worked quite well, as the players came up with quite inventive ways to spend money in order to earn experience from it. Like commissioning a statue of themselves, saving the town.<br /><br />There were really no hard and fast rules about exactly what was bought, as it was just treated as a sort of investment. For example someone who had spent 1000sp on a library was more likely to find a useful tome than someone who had spent only 100sp. It gave a measure of the resources the character had available to them and stopped the campaign from becoming arbitrarily inflationary.<br /><br />[* An sp was approximately equivalent to the standard D&D gp. Gold was much more valuable.]<br /><br />[** Actually this was the reason this system developed, since it made sense to be able to get paid instruction at a school.]<br /><br />Nowadays I prefer economic systems that integrate economics, wealth, and social status all together, which generally means that actual monies aren't used in the game mechanics. Instead your social status and wealth gives a measure of the resources available to you for obtaining personal items. Treasure can be used to buy wealth and status, or simply spent in it's place. This tends to tie the characters a lot more into the structure of the society they belong to, rather than just having them pass through it.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-999955139905295022011-05-17T17:26:27.930-04:002011-05-17T17:26:27.930-04:00Just like XP, 4e's cash is for pacing and conv...Just like XP, 4e's cash is for pacing and convenience: how quickly the players gain new gear, and you might as well let them pick because it's a lot of work to force the GM to track optimization of builds. So, to me, it's not actually about a fictional economy. Economy is up to you.<br /><br />And that makes sense. So much is open to interpretation in 4e. Are the player characters among the few heroes in the entire world? Or is the world crawling with them? That alone makes a massive difference in how your heroic prowess could keep you well-fed or could even net you a kingdom. Two perfectly reasonable and interesting interpretations have sent the state of the players' pocketbooks in opposing directions, and there are equally drastic implications about setting impact.<br /><br />Perhaps the most interesting thing is that no matter which interpretation you choose, this usually paints 4e as a world where power and reputation is the foundation of the economy. In a story in which the main characters are magical supermen, that's vastly more interesting. Look at superhero comics. The most interesting villains are not just doing it for the scratch. And even when they are, it's an intermediate step to do something far more nefarious.<br /><br />The Dresden Files series is a great example of how the flow of power and reputation alternately serves to push Harry under and pull his head above water. And the end result is that his ideals contrast heavily with those of the world around him. An economy of power and reputation serves to make him a stronger character. If you're aware of it, this can be a key to making a game sing.Paulhttp://podgecast.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-61178964281423661302011-05-17T14:40:45.323-04:002011-05-17T14:40:45.323-04:00In my game, the characters went through the entire...In my game, the characters went through the entire heroic tier without ever setting foot in a shop. This was because they were too busy. The story pace I set was cinematic and urgent, and I think it was very successful. <br /><br />One escapade was at a coliseum with heavy betting, and the characters had to become high rollers to achieve their goals. They surpassed by every expectation and left with a ludicrous amount of currency, but have yet to take advantage of it. w00t :)Gokenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16731425203543925430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-65641788373645945732011-05-17T13:59:01.424-04:002011-05-17T13:59:01.424-04:00The issue for 4e I've found is that in order f...The issue for 4e I've found is that in order for the money system to work, players have to pool their cash together, which goes against the implied bounty hunting/greedy treasure hunting concepts that inspire stories of 18 torch sconces. General expenditures such as Inn time, general NPC interaction, and survival gear cut into funds and to realistically split shares between characters leaves most characters only able to afford an item 5-6 ranks below their level.<br /><br />This is especially problematic for ritual/alchemy users who have to not only spend money to learn new formulas, but then also spend money to use said items, many of which do not have a guarantee upon working.<br /><br />This doesn't help matters if the party decides to make these arrangements in character rather than the players coming to a simple deal on how to allocate funds for the group. There's always "the selfish one who whines about spending 'his' cash on outfitting the team" in every group, which is just as bad in the long run as "the guy who hides in the wagon."Mike Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-44864597058326742842011-05-17T12:02:25.450-04:002011-05-17T12:02:25.450-04:00Money's just a way of keeping score in my game...Money's just a way of keeping score in my game. In the Dark Sun game I play in, it's also a way to stay fed.<br /><br />I'm happy with it right now, but I do love the idea of building castles and ruling kingdoms. When my campaign gets to that point, I'm going to follow the DMG2 advice about separating "loot that makes the PCs more kickass or gives them buying power to make themselves more kickass" and "abstract loot for maintaining and upgrading domains."<br /><br />I plan to have my cake and eat it too. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-87909819539624771562011-05-17T11:14:39.709-04:002011-05-17T11:14:39.709-04:00Your post reminded me a lot of http://at-will.omni...Your post reminded me a lot of <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/penniless-but-not-powerless-part-1/" rel="nofollow">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/penniless-but-not-powerless-part-1/</a> if you haven't seen it.highbulp (aka, Joel)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03830016579597691953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-1098129467295548282011-05-17T11:11:55.729-04:002011-05-17T11:11:55.729-04:00Money is a parallel experience system. In some gam...Money is a parallel experience system. In some games, like say Shadowrun, I would even go so far to argue that buying new toys is the main experience system and character improvement is the secondary one.<br /><br />It is a way to balance out the short term rewards versus the long term. You may still be 3 or 4 sessions away from levelling up but you can drop cash on that +2 stick of beating now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12098545506479026723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-24649340315899836272011-05-17T10:23:22.057-04:002011-05-17T10:23:22.057-04:00I'm reminded of how deeply I find my apathy fo...I'm reminded of how deeply I find my apathy for money and gear extends, into the uttermost roots of the earth. When I ran D&D in its last edition, I routinely handwaved a lot of this and had to learn how to gauge the effectiveness of equipment not in terms of its cost but its impact and utility. Even then, I'm sure sometimes my players' characters were underequipped, but it never seemed to harsh their abilities.<br /><br />Dragonlance adventures were interesting to write in that era, and would be even more interesting now, because the underlying premise of treasure in DL is "hand out big widgets once in a while, otherwise make the players broke." I had some complaints from GMs who said my adventures didn't give the PCs nearly enough steel pieces (aka gold) even though some of the PCs were hauling around ancient dragonlances and powerful staffs of power.Cam_Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16162534181760938499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-85647255028271227812011-05-17T10:05:28.227-04:002011-05-17T10:05:28.227-04:00Certainly in Diaspora money is a driver for advent...Certainly in Diaspora money is a driver for adventure -- you gotta make those maintenance payments on your ship. It's weakly tied to gear, but gearing up enough to get an advantage isn't really a matter of cash in the end, so that's an illusory nod to earlier systems that it sort of emulates.<br /><br />If you don't have a space ship, then the driver kind of collapses and failing to call that out explicitly (or even notice it, frankly) is probably the chief problem with Diaspora at the moment.Brad Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11327477677392602412noreply@blogger.com