tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post5690646890309951786..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: Third Party, Fourth EditionAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-12807157015305141392010-05-24T17:05:30.716-04:002010-05-24T17:05:30.716-04:00Late to the party, but couldn't agree with thi...Late to the party, but couldn't agree with this more.<br /><br />I've even blogged about this issue myself a few times.<br /><br />Monsters, mini-campaigns, and adventures seem to be the spot for 3rd party products.<br /><br />I've penned one 4th edition Monster book (FEY FOLIO - Alluria Publishing) and worked on another (the aformentioned Desire). Both of them held to the model of unique villains coupled with campaign support.<br /><br />Nice articulation of what's going on 3pp style, Rob.Matthew AChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00517372089355500541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-58022720642498467372010-05-20T06:22:47.861-04:002010-05-20T06:22:47.861-04:00Too many good commnets, but I think this has ended...Too many good commnets, but I think this has ended up setting up the next post. One or two things.<br /><br />* The other rub with a skill challenges books is striking a balance between ones that are interesting, but useful. More gnerally, it might be worth coming up with some language to distinguish types of skill challenges. Some are just transitions, others are involved narritives with different kinds of mechanical impacts.<br /><br />@Jonathan The Desire was exactly the kind of envelope=pushing product I was hoping to see start exploding off the shelves as a result of 4e. It deserves every bit of praise.<br /><br />@rechan Those are great examples, and I think of them as problems to be solved too! I just used the most common things I've heard as examples, but I think you've laid out an entire vein of viable products.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-21878552641715004892010-05-20T05:05:05.653-04:002010-05-20T05:05:05.653-04:00"And that's the truth of it. Beyond monst..."And that's the truth of it. Beyond monsters you can have all manner of interesting products, from adventures to cards for tracking things to custom action points, but they're all just going to be novelties unless they *solve a problem*..."<br /><br />Perhaps this is truth from a publisher's mindset. But from a DM's perspective, there are various "novelties" that I am not good at creating (such as those "features of the area" or small magical/special effects you sprinkle into an encounter; a book dedicated to that would be a godsend to me). <br /><br />And I constantly see complaints about a dearth of GOOD 4e adventures and constantly see people wanting adventures. <br /><br />So perhaps the threat is "flop", or not able to break even, but from an anecdotal perspective I see a lot of demand for a product that is just not out there.<br /><br />Many suggestions have been very corner case, very specialized, but I see a very strong need for some people. Similar to the way that Hard Boiled Armies was tackled, I've seen a real hunger from people who want simulationism: an Economy that works, a way for keeps/bases/etc to be handled in a rewards system, a book of "Non-magical equipment lists" of yon ten foot poles, donkeys and cost of ships. Or even random tables. A 12 page PDF offering mundane equipment, costs, and lists of sample shops could have in stock would be fast to create and would wet the appetite of these folks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12552946449252599808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-13151204501811803452010-05-19T19:59:51.181-04:002010-05-19T19:59:51.181-04:00I've found that with the software dependent-ne...I've found that with the software dependent-ness of 4E that I stop being as much in control of my character. I don't own the software and my DM (hi DJ!) updates my toon when I level.<br /><br />This means that I end up a bit divorced from certain things...such as gold. I have never kept track of gold on my character, and it just keeps getting worse as I spend on things that are mushy and role-playingly instead of magic items.<br /><br />I mean XP really means something, but gold...meh...eventually it might be a useful item, but more than likely it will just forget to be updated next time I level...Kirby Vosburghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11460798256196493562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-47075660020062935472010-05-19T12:35:26.474-04:002010-05-19T12:35:26.474-04:00@ROB -- Glad you enjoyed The Desire! We worked har...@ROB -- Glad you enjoyed The Desire! We worked hard on making it as usable as possible, and with as few railroads (read:none) as possible - but like you said; it's either a clear hit or a clear miss for a DM. [shamelessplug] Hopefully you'll enjoy our next eBook - The Hidden Kingdom - which is going to follow the same format. [/shamelessplug]<br /><br />It really is a huge bonus to us that you enjoyed it Rob!Jonathan Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133232985480734844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-67907185276548040012010-05-19T12:04:41.090-04:002010-05-19T12:04:41.090-04:00Like linnaeus, one thing I would really love to se...Like linnaeus, one thing I would really love to see are more adventures and things like Hammerfast. The ability in 4e to quickly reskin monsters and other things, makes that part of campaign planning very easy but I sometimes still struggle with the process of bringing everything together. But my group also doesn't want to play through a module/adventure. So what I normally do is steal from existing ones as I can or use short ones from Dungeon that I can reflavor easily to fit into my homebrew. I do this so often I created an adventure/module database on my site for searching. The problem is that the third party stuff is not as well organized and harder for me to add.<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure how a third-party publisher can make money on this, but there are a lot of people new to DMing out there who need help. I get a few thank yous from people who read about my experiences as a novice DM and people have even started asking me for advice. I would really like to get to the next level of encounter and adventure design, but there aren't a ton of resources out there that really explain how to do that and so many of the people I ask have been doing this for so long they think the answers are obvious.tracyhttp://www.sarahdarkmagic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-16821046241006046932010-05-19T11:59:21.098-04:002010-05-19T11:59:21.098-04:00The software is good enough that it dominates anyt...The software is good enough that it dominates anything with a player focus, yet not quite good enough in that it isn't flexible enough to do everything we want.<br /><br />As a GM, I'm reluctant to put anything into my game world that I can't trivially put into CB as a house rule. Because if I do, we have to figure out how to squeeze the house rule onto a card in the house rules system, and do the math ourselves. I can do the crunchy math, but I also fall into the category of GMs with little free time to do game prep.<br /><br />I wish they had more software development resources, honestly. While their initial push was pretty great, bugs and enhancement requests have become something of a black hole.<br /><br />I'd love to see a skill challenge book, as I think that's an interesting area to develop minigames around. In looking at Dungeon magazine for ideas (and/or teaching adventures to run for players unfamiliar with the rules), the skill challenges are usually the weakest link of the adventures.<br /><br />The apathy for 3rd party books of classes/feats/paragon paths is not limited to 3rd party products. We're entering year 3 of books, and both the game I run and the game I play in are not considering new books for PC fodder. So no Martial Power 2 and only a few things out of Player's Handbook 3 (none of which are classes). It would help if WOTC came up with a model that made them profitable without cluttering the player's side of the universe with so many options, but I can't say that I have a business model to sell them. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205728554265781888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-21329211180099821272010-05-19T11:44:54.778-04:002010-05-19T11:44:54.778-04:00Oops! In the previous comment, I forgot to mention...Oops! In the previous comment, I forgot to mention my other opinion about this: a good niche/market for third-party publishers is <em>systemless supplements</em> like maps/tiles, counters/standees, props, and story resources.Icosahedrophiliahttp://d20.heardworld.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-79384133712262153382010-05-19T11:43:06.793-04:002010-05-19T11:43:06.793-04:00I, too, agree that third-party class books, feat b...I, too, agree that third-party class books, feat books, power books, etc. don't interest me very much for 4e. I do think that third-party <em>race</em> books can be an interesting design space to explore, and I have used one in my current campaign, but only for NPCs/villains.<br /><br />A "Monster Manual of skill challenges"? Awesome idea, if well-executed. You caught that, Quinn? You were listening? You're on it?<br /><br />WRT to "software dependency," though … 4e is <em>not</em> "software-dependent." The Character Builder and Monster Builder (which, by the way, is still considered <em>beta</em>) are extremely convenient, but not <em>necessary</em>. It's fairly important to have access to a web browser and a PDF reader to keep up with errata, but sometimes we even deliberately ignore the errata at our table. If you have a DMG, a PH, an MM, and some willing accomplices, you can play D&D 4e as a purely analog experience. No software required. 4e got along just fine for the first year without the Character Builder. (I realize the CB may be more important if you're involved in organized play experiences that require CB-legal characters, but here I'm just talking about straight-up playing D&D at home with your friends.)Icosahedrophiliahttp://d20.heardworld.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-42064934160946481942010-05-19T11:20:50.145-04:002010-05-19T11:20:50.145-04:00So here's me doing my damnedest to be succinct...So here's me doing my damnedest to be succinct. I'm trying to be short because if I type too much I'll type a novel :)<br /><br />4e needs third party products that extend what's there already. Like Rob said, if you need to abandon the CB to use your material, you've most likely lost unless it's incredibly cool. <br /><br />Mechanics that fit nicely on top of what is there is great though.<br /><br />Also -Skill challenge book? Hmmm....gamefiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00330931451328258680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-81762981349772827732010-05-19T11:08:05.181-04:002010-05-19T11:08:05.181-04:00I totally agree about Skill Challenges being the o...I totally agree about Skill Challenges being the one area best suited to a 3rd party product. I run RPGA scenarios at my LGS and the only positive response to one was when I tweaked your Siege at Fallcrest example to represent defending an armed camp. (Big ups to you for posting that awesome challenge, btw.)<br /><br />I would happily pay money for a product which took sample situations from fiction and wrote them up as detailed (like your Siege) examples of skill challenges. Often the hardest part of writing skill challenges is figuring out things for the different skills to do. Something which helped out with that would greatly appreciated (by me at least).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00775201716326164509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-69704789503578968862010-05-19T11:02:40.071-04:002010-05-19T11:02:40.071-04:00I've been wondering for a while if my lack of ...I've been wondering for a while if my lack of interest in third party products for 4e (generally) was just me, or if it was a mistake by the publishers, and I think this confirms that it was a mistake by the publishers (that also played into my own tastes).<br /><br />I wasn't a big fan of the 3.x splatbooks in the first place, but the glut of new races and classes and paragon paths — the equivalent of those 3.x products — came in a flood early. I think your analysis confirms for me that it was based on a flawed assumption that the 3.x third party business plan would carry over to 4e.<br /><br />I think there is a big opportunity for publishers that offer adventures and modules (I no longer consider them synonymous, but I'll save that for my own blog) that offer things WotC's products don't, and there are several paths, some mutually exclusive, available here. Strongly plotted adventures with fleshed out roleplaying opportunities, traditional adventures that offer less railroad and more room for exploration, and elements that can easily be plugged into sandbox settings (but aren't just WotC-style delves) all come readily to mind.<br /><br />And, yeah, the first killer skill challenge product, even a Monster Manual of skill challenges, could rack up real sales, especially if it was available in print via PoD.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-53842072029824127362010-05-19T10:59:31.425-04:002010-05-19T10:59:31.425-04:00What drives me up the wall, actually, about how so...What drives me up the wall, actually, about how software-dependent 4E is, is that they don't even fully support their own rule-set.<br /><br />Want to put a template, from the DMGs, onto a monster? The Monster Builder doesn't do that. Sure, you can put it together by hand, but it's a pain when it should be a one-click process.<br /><br />Want to, as described in the PHB, have a Wand of some spell other than those already listed as examples? Sorry, the CB doesn't know how to do that.<br /><br />Third-party or house-ruled components are another casualty, but the fact that the software doesn't even cover all of the game is nuts.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14884082736631370173noreply@blogger.com