tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post2801808151401119565..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: Fairness and TrustAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-27981043144528720652011-02-24T00:12:25.169-05:002011-02-24T00:12:25.169-05:00GM Trust has been a huge issue in my mind lately, ...GM Trust has been a huge issue in my mind lately, as I've come at it from both the GM and the player perspective. There are some times when the GM has made things suck for your character that it's hard to remember that all of this is for a purpose and you need to be patient. It's frustrating as a GM when your carefully-crafted challenge for the players, be it combat or puzzles or whatever, leads to complaints from the players that you aren't being fair. It's even worse when a few incidences of your villains doing something clever that you can justify (but don't want to explain to them <i>how</i> you can justify) leads to complaints that you're screwing them over.<br /><br />So when I'm playing a game, I have a hard time <i>showing</i> the trust that I would pay cash money to get <i>from</i> players when I'm GMing. Gah.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333781524640845035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-56395269778778286512011-02-23T17:27:19.881-05:002011-02-23T17:27:19.881-05:00Could you give me an example of the GM being "...Could you give me an example of the GM being "unfair" from your own play experience?<br /><br />I really don't know what you mean by that word.Juddhttp://githyankidiaspora.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-13231814326699646952011-02-23T16:40:09.094-05:002011-02-23T16:40:09.094-05:00Rob, would you give some examples of what you mean...Rob, would you give some examples of what you mean by "unfair"? DaveTheGame sort of did, but I'm not sure I understand.<br /><br />Do you mean something like a GM deciding that, no matter how the dice roll, the (e.g.) dragon is going to win, because that would be really cool?buzzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06243298798049780695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-46771018575041148372011-02-23T13:12:57.571-05:002011-02-23T13:12:57.571-05:00I just finished writing something like this in reg...I just finished writing something like this in regards to Fiasco; essentially the fact that the game is cooperative (you're all trying to tell a good story) rather than competitive (my character vs. your challenges) actually frees the participants up to be bastards and push each other harder. If you trust your friends, you know they're aren't just being dicks by putting you in a tough spot. In fact you want them to, because it gives you more to work with, and a better story!Steve Segedyhttp://www.bullypulpitgames.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-70420576970790983672011-02-23T12:34:34.534-05:002011-02-23T12:34:34.534-05:00@Cam,
Having finally played Leverage, I really ap...@Cam,<br /><br />Having finally played <em>Leverage</em>, I really appreciated the subsection on "Collaboration and Responsibility"—after the game. We're a pretty well-functioning group, but this game brought out a great kind of collaboration in us, where not only were we all trying to find roles for each of us in the heist/con, but we were also helping the Fixer come up with good and interesting complications, readily.<br /><br />All of this is to say that the middle ground you talk about can be encouraged by a game, even if it can't be handed to you, the player.Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540697795553677511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-81068359383141230602011-02-23T12:24:43.581-05:002011-02-23T12:24:43.581-05:00I agree with you on trust deepening a game. The m...I agree with you on trust deepening a game. The more trust you have built up, the cooler of a game you can run/play. <br /><br />I think the standard view of a GM is the director of the game, but I tend to think of the GM as "master of surprise", or at least "VP of twists". Everyone is playing, everyone is telling the story, but it's one guy's job to bring delightful surprises and challenges that engage the other players where they want to be engaged while also introducing things that weren't planned.<br /><br />So I'll see your trust and raise you a certain level of dramatic sensitivity for "exalted" gaming.egamefiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00330931451328258680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-10172480669141313722011-02-23T11:42:30.748-05:002011-02-23T11:42:30.748-05:00I tend to GM, so I have to flip your question back...I tend to GM, so I have to flip your question back and say that I know the players in my regular game trust me to be unfair- this often means giving the bad guys abilities not on paper or fudging things a bit to produce a more interesting outcome. They might not know the extent this happens, but they know it does and are good with it.<br /><br />The main downside of such a situation is that there is a metagame situation where they know that I am unlikely to get particularly brutal towards a single player. However, that just makes me want to push them to their limits even more.Dave The Gamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16568427491720287020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-5818063367438862772011-02-23T11:18:47.970-05:002011-02-23T11:18:47.970-05:00When you come right down to it, gaming is all abou...When you come right down to it, gaming is all about trust. Everyone agrees what the rules are up front (D&D v4 with house rule mods, or even unwritten table rules like don't touch dice that aren't yours), and everyone sticks by them or risks being labelled "rude" or even ostracism. Players don't know how the game will run until the game starts, but they trust that their characters will be able to use their abilities to shine at some point during play.<br /><br />The one thing I've always tried to do as a GM is give a reason for everything that happens in game, especially when one of the bad guys seems to break the rules. Maybe that reason isn't immediately apparent, but it's there if the players want to dig for it.<br /><br />In my mind, fairness is far more fatalistic: all dice must be in plain view, etc. In that case, you don't need to trust the GM, you need to trust the dice. I think that's fine for board games or any situation where everyone operates at the same power level, but I don't think that works as well for a game with a super-player like tabletop RPGs. I would much rather place my trust in my group (GM and players) than be fair and let the dice fall where they may.<br /><br />Since the GM gates your experience with the world, you already need to trust that your GM is giving you honest feedback about the results of your actions. Extending that trust to the story seems like a short hop to me.<br /><br />Great topic, and wonderful food for thought.Jim Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10238994819794067525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-79767869381666608922011-02-23T11:01:26.909-05:002011-02-23T11:01:26.909-05:00I've been thinking about this since yesterday,...I've been thinking about this since yesterday, and I think I'd be much more demanding of fairness in a CRPG than I would from a GM. I've been struggling to put my finger on exactly why, though.<br /><br />In a table-top game, I'd have no problem playing a character weaker than another character, but as soon as I start a computer RPG I've away to gamefaqs to make sure I don't make some bad choices and end up having to struggle through the game. Maybe it's related to this? <br /><br />Or it could possibly be related to the idea of quicksaves; in games such as Fallout I'd frequently reload until I got the best possible solution for a quest, something obviously not possible when you're playing opposite a human GM.I'm working towards a GOAL in my CRPG and want the most effective way to get there; all the PnP games I've played in have been indefinite campaigns.<br /><br />As an afterthought, maybe the question you asked at the end of your post is 'do you trust that your GM WILL be unfair'.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02095858640431375195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-34457930628991246352011-02-23T10:49:40.802-05:002011-02-23T10:49:40.802-05:00I've grown to like the notion of trusting that...I've grown to like the notion of trusting that everybody else at the table - GM and players both - wants to sell each other's successes and celebrate the consequences of often difficult choices. I think games that either turn the GM into a ruthless antagonist or a toothless facilitator are missing that awesome in the middle.Cam_Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16162534181760938499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-76405131308989065882011-02-23T10:42:20.238-05:002011-02-23T10:42:20.238-05:00Let's consider two movies where the character ...Let's consider two movies where the character lives in a world controlled one or more "gods".<br /><br />Clash of the Titans (especially the remake)<br /><br />The Truman Show<br /><br />In the Clash of the Titans the characters exist within a world created by the gods, but that world follows established rules. The gods are capricious and vindictive but the world itself is "fair" and the protagonists can work towards whatever goals they set for themselves, even opposing the gods.<br /><br />In The Truman Show the main character exists within a world that's also created by a defacto "god" who isn't trying to be capricious or vindictive. He likes Truman and wants him to have a happy, interesting life (it makes for a good story / ratings). However the world itself is "unfair" and things move around behind the scenes at the whim of the "god". The only real goal the protagonist can have in this movie is escape from this artificial world he has no real control over.<br /><br />So when people talk about the GM being "Fair", it depends on what they mean, what sort of game world they want their character to inhabit, and really, what sort of game they want to play.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-11327242585083916622011-02-23T10:34:23.786-05:002011-02-23T10:34:23.786-05:00Not really? I haven't been a PC in long enough...Not really? I haven't been a PC in long enough that I, the few times I've done it in the last several years, have built up the trust that the pay off for the story is going to be worth the inequitable consequences.<br /><br />I'd like to think my players trust me, as a GM, but the counterpoint is that I don't try to test that trust often. And the ways that I do are fairly "standard" ways for me, rarely are they more then momentarily surprised by it..Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.com