tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post3728062560130537459..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: This Is Not A ScienceAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-33178165975094411832011-01-26T16:16:09.316-05:002011-01-26T16:16:09.316-05:00First of all, I wanted to say that I really like t...First of all, I wanted to say that I really like this idea! I think it has great potential.<br />One thing struck me as I was reading this post. A character trained and with skill focus will do damage equivalent of a daily, but there is no limit to the number of times this can be done, unlike daily powers. This means that defeating an opponent is easier through skill use than attacks.<br /><br />Another dynamic I see is that in a single skill challenge, one character will effectively be using all dailies/encounter powers (trained in the primary skill), and other players will "use" mostly at-wills. This is assuming the use of the same skill over and over is allowed. The players that are not trained may come up with an interesting way to use a skill they are trained in, but I don't see this happening every round.<br /><br />Of course, this is also an "issue" (or feature, depending on how you look at it) with vanilla skill challenges where one character shines.<br /><br />I do like this idea, and apologize if any of the issues I have brought up have already been considered and resolved. I have not read all your posts on the subject yet, but I wanted to formulate my thoughts while it was fresh in my mind.Neubertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-44012331395968518232011-01-22T09:11:02.798-05:002011-01-22T09:11:02.798-05:00Translated to Russian.
Link http://mycampaigns.blo...Translated to Russian.<br />Link http://mycampaigns.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post_5128.htmlSnarls-at-Fleashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987790816491565305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-23631292148173666192011-01-15T17:45:19.071-05:002011-01-15T17:45:19.071-05:00I've really liked the past two posts, but this...I've really liked the past two posts, but this one definitely puts icing on the cake by giving more tools for designing skill challenges. The overall budget concept as well as the ability to adapt monster defenses goes a long way to making skill challenges more modular and thus easier to assemble out of well defined parts. As is, I think the current skill challenges feel either under defined or require a lot of GM handcrafting. Perhaps more crucially from WotCs perspective, D&D books seem better suited to selling a large number of modular components rather than a smaller number of well balanced set pieces.<br /><br />I'd done some <a href="http://gregorysanders.org/2010/11/gaming-doing-more-with-skills-in-4th-edition-dd.html" rel="nofollow">thinking a while back on how skill checks could be brought into line mathematically with attack rolls</a> but I hadn't made the crucial leap you did in the last post to separate out the skill roll from skill damage.<br /><br />All of which is to say great work, I think you really have something here.Greg Sandershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01361492059565486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-65912875494790951892011-01-14T22:33:43.558-05:002011-01-14T22:33:43.558-05:00Rob, this is a terrific idea. I don't exactly ...Rob, this is a terrific idea. I don't exactly hate the Skill Challenge system but I've always regretted how out of step it is with the more avowedly fun part of 4E (i.e. the fightin').<br /><br />I know that One Bad Egg is no longer operating, but if you wrote this up as a mini-system and sold it as a 15-20 page PDF, I would buy it in a red hot minute. Just a data point for you there.<br /><br />DaveCornelius Gallowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877329519864340022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-84411409474280898662011-01-14T15:03:13.146-05:002011-01-14T15:03:13.146-05:00@seth Yeah, Sometime down the line in this I defin...@seth Yeah, Sometime down the line in this I definitely want to talk about a map or something serving a similar purpose. I've used them to good effect in other games, but tuning it for the flavor of D&D is the interesting bit to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-81563932628475515652011-01-14T14:42:01.214-05:002011-01-14T14:42:01.214-05:00I pondered some of the same things back in july of...I pondered some of the same things back in july of last year as I tried to convert all skill challenges to 4e's combat system. One thing I wanted to ensure was maintaining the dynamic flow of combat, I.e. shifts, slides, etc.<br /><br />What I eventually settled on was a skill map similar to diaspora coupled with skill specific terrain. The challenge/monster attempted to maneuver the pc's to a position that was beneficial to it, but bad for the pc's. The pc's gained an extra bonus for defeating the challenge on terrain favorable to them. These terrains also provided mechanical bonuses during the skill challenge, much like terrain in combat.<br /><br />I hadn't thought about using SP and HP interchangably. That makes things much easier.Seth Claytonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-18600013298936031842011-01-14T14:19:18.877-05:002011-01-14T14:19:18.877-05:00@atminn Yup. Once you open the door to the idea th...@atminn Yup. Once you open the door to the idea that you're "buying" these things, all sorts of tricks open up.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-32062301589107654752011-01-14T14:09:42.407-05:002011-01-14T14:09:42.407-05:00And a re-used threat/opponent could be discounted,...And a re-used threat/opponent could be discounted, since you already know his weaknesses, etc and beat him once. So instead of 20 SP this door guard could be just 10. Still there narratively and mechanically, but not too troubling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-8653307719966688572011-01-14T13:38:34.657-05:002011-01-14T13:38:34.657-05:00As a note, you can also use accounting tricks. Th...As a note, you can also use accounting tricks. That is to say, if the party sneaks past the 20 sp guard, and he shows up again later, it' snot unreasonable to "rebudget" for him. That is to say, you pay for him out of XP/SP budget as if it was a new opponent, but you re-use the existing opponent simply because it's more stylish. <br /><br />-Rob D.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-30187605820933976202011-01-14T13:30:57.133-05:002011-01-14T13:30:57.133-05:00So, if your players beat a monster (reduce him to ...So, if your players beat a monster (reduce him to zero hit points) do they have to fight that monster again later on?<br /><br />While I don't think there's a right answer to that, the answer you choose applies equally well to situations. If you effectively take those piece off the board, then you get once answer. If you leave them in play, you get another. <br /><br />Answer is, I note, as much a function of taste as it is of genre and tone. If they do come back, expect players to kill more people. if that's not the desired tone, then consider changing up. But if a high body count is expected, then all's good.<br /><br />-Rob D.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-46605174288845426922011-01-14T13:09:56.756-05:002011-01-14T13:09:56.756-05:00I dunno, I'd be worried that making the party ...I dunno, I'd be worried that making the party stealth past the guy again punishes them for not killing him. There would need to be some kind of payoff in the story or the mechanics for not killing him, I would think. Something like "I get to keep my oath of nonviolence" works, because the player has already chosen to play on Hard Mode. If you could make it clear to players that an alarm was <i>not</i> raised because that guard never turned up missing or dead, that would work too, but that might be tricky to communicate to them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333781524640845035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-10810925175395724892011-01-14T13:06:30.718-05:002011-01-14T13:06:30.718-05:00well, that depends on me taking the same way out, ...well, that depends on me taking the same way out, but essentially, you can be right. And that's fair, you ain't got to be the real thief if somebody knows you're in before you're out, and it's gotta be hard.Guns_n_Droidshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410926775231486790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-43288568903363155422011-01-14T13:03:35.508-05:002011-01-14T13:03:35.508-05:00@Guns In that case, leaving him alone instead of t...@Guns In that case, leaving him alone instead of taking him out means that facing him again on the way out is yet another 20SP threat to deal with. Sneaking by successfully once is certainly not final.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-87418673176373564152011-01-14T12:59:27.776-05:002011-01-14T12:59:27.776-05:00but that's probably fair as he is worried abou...<i>but that's probably fair as he is worried about how the player actually got past him, or more importantly, what his sergeant will say to him about letting thieves and assassins sneak into the castle...</i><br />I'm fairly sure, that if I've got past him by stealth, than he does not know a thing about it. That's why I use stealth, don't I?Guns_n_Droidshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410926775231486790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-11048030723795649412011-01-14T12:56:04.337-05:002011-01-14T12:56:04.337-05:00How would you fit the use of healing surges into t...How would you fit the use of healing surges into this model? Could a guard who has been defeated just using the Stealth skill use healing surges to recover their composure, if given a reason to?<br /><br />This probably applies to point [3], where the player leaves the "defeated guard" alone and continues on. The break from the challenge probably counts as a break from combat, allowing the guard to heal. His resources are diminished, but that's probably fair as he is worried about how the player actually got past him, or more importantly, what his sergeant will say to him about letting thieves and assassins sneak into the castle...Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-13665907940235349332011-01-14T11:05:57.832-05:002011-01-14T11:05:57.832-05:00I'm very interested in what you've said ab...I'm very interested in what you've said about this idea so far, and I look forward to seeing what kinds of "attacks" against the players you create for situations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333781524640845035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-81921463932371448282011-01-14T10:51:08.334-05:002011-01-14T10:51:08.334-05:00@Jonathan I haven't looked at wushu in a while...@Jonathan I haven't looked at wushu in a while, but there's definitely some synergy there. <br /><br />@glimm There's a concern, but I think it's pretty easy to address. That +5 bonus from a trained skill is a big bump initially and it fills the same "niche" as the magical bonus in weapons (Accuracy is off the table because it generally cancels out vs the fact that AC is two points higher than other defenses). Net result, skills will be much more accurate than attacks early on, then level out as the magic items start catching up. (In both cases it's Stat + 1/2 level as base, after all) <br /><br />Skill focus can offset this leveling a little, but I think it's also a reason that magic items with bonuses to skills might become a little less lame. <br /><br />@Guns If the GM constructs the situation that way, then yes, exactly. Presumably, the GM will actually throw in some curveballs so our thief will have to do something other than keep rolling stealth, but that's a design issue. In theory, yes, it could be as simple as that. (I'll be talking more about how to design these challenges next week, and things like this are very much on the table)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-47661417728029473342011-01-14T10:41:55.594-05:002011-01-14T10:41:55.594-05:00About the last idea: so, if Sam Fisher(iconic spy ...About the last idea: so, if Sam Fisher(iconic spy character) or Garreth gets into the castle, goes past every guard in the castle, steals the treasure, and gets out same way, that's a ton of successful stealth/whatever checks without any "fight" with the castle owner, who is represented by guards and their security, am I right?Guns_n_Droidshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410926775231486790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-83253570898203495472011-01-14T10:38:04.182-05:002011-01-14T10:38:04.182-05:00One potential problem with using monster defenses ...One potential problem with using monster defenses as the DCs of skill checks is the big differences between the progressions of skills and attack bonuses. Attack bonuses tend to increase pretty steadily while a low-level character can get a very high skill bonus through training + skill focus. Any ideas on how to address that?Glimm the Gnomehttp://glimmthegnome.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-41160645079200228312011-01-14T10:35:28.139-05:002011-01-14T10:35:28.139-05:00If you haven't, you should read Wushu Reloaded...If you haven't, you should read Wushu Reloaded. Lots of your ideas seem to be pushing D&D towards Wushu.. <br /><br />http://www.story-games.at/wushu/open_reloaded.pdfJonathan C. Dietrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18173660969243599070noreply@blogger.com