tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post3490310782224907891..comments2023-05-27T11:14:02.426-04:00Comments on Some Space to Think: Teaching Vs. Learning Vs. FiascoAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-86604980329207439162011-07-10T05:05:17.594-04:002011-07-10T05:05:17.594-04:00Great read :). Actually a lot of people told me, t...Great read :). Actually a lot of people told me, they consider Fiasco „the better PTA“, as it gives you more structure. Still, while I really enjoy Fiasco the first time I played it, it bothered me a bit, that I had to adjust my tempo of wanting to complicate / advance the story to the structure of the game. It got better as I got more used to the game, but well sometimes I still have that feeling that I have to go trough some „not quite as interesting scenes“ before the next big thing is allowed to happen.<br /><br />Hm.. my take if you're looking for a RPG / Storygame that allows / „forces“ you to advance no matter if you play it well or only „correctly“, would be Eero Tuvinen Zombie Cinema. Actually quite an fitting example, as it really comes disguised as a board game^^.Horationoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-49070485828424263072011-07-05T23:06:54.233-04:002011-07-05T23:06:54.233-04:00many Fiasco games may well have a GM-in-all-but-na...<i>many Fiasco games may well have a GM-in-all-but-name, the person who brought the book, explains the rules and so on,</i><br /><br />I describe this role as the "host". "Facilitator" works, too, but I think "host" is friendlier.Pôl Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12829715841878775387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-8984940698160008092011-07-05T19:52:48.023-04:002011-07-05T19:52:48.023-04:00Interesting analysis, Rob. I would love to see so...Interesting analysis, Rob. I would love to see some actual anecdotal evidence of non-gamers playing Fiasco, with or without a facilitator. I have a few non-gamer friends who are very creative and spontaneous (they love Dixit, for instance). One is a scriptwriter. I wonder if Fiasco would work for them?OlmanFeelyushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17521657876810568251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-23398225426146560522011-07-05T19:45:04.023-04:002011-07-05T19:45:04.023-04:00I should note that I consider it an incredible str...I should note that I consider it an incredible strength of fiascos text that it's a not-purely- procedural game where we can even -discuss- newbie accessibility rather than just laugh when the topic comes up.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14216103531396452644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-63462688611761419702011-07-05T17:30:14.989-04:002011-07-05T17:30:14.989-04:00I do think Fiasco is very close to being written i...I do think Fiasco is very close to being written in such a way that a non-gamer could follow it. (For all I know, it is already and I just can't see with non-gamer eyes any more.) so if Wil Wheaton and John Rogers wanted to invest in mass-marketing the game, a) Sweet! and b) Jason would "just" have to revise the text and test it to make sure it was n00b-friendly.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08018705513587424497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-4163500113010946992011-07-05T17:26:16.726-04:002011-07-05T17:26:16.726-04:00I agree with what's been said in previous comm...I agree with what's been said in previous comments.<br /><br />I think it depends a lot on the facilitator, and without someone who knows the game well it'd be very tricky.<br /><br />In general, I think you want someone to guide you through something the first time. It takes too much energy to discover everything on your own.<br /><br /> When you have little or no knowledge about a subject, you don't even know what questions to ask to learn more. You don't have the vocabulary to phrase the questions. <br /> <br />With a game like Fiasco I could see that it'd be easier if you are comfortable with the story format, even if you are unfamiliar with the game format. <br /><br />You easily get stumped if you have too many options. It can sometimes be more liberating to have a choice between 'A' or 'B'. Or examples to guide you - 'You could do something like A or B'<br /><br />With great power comes great confusion, when there's uncertainty about how to use that power.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195617187266142413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-81054465270654382942011-07-05T17:06:36.129-04:002011-07-05T17:06:36.129-04:00I know there's a growing Hollywood crowd of sc...I know there's a growing Hollywood crowd of screenwriter types who are totally ga-ga over Fiasco and I'm not sure all of them are actually gamers. But the usual suspects are.Cam_Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16162534181760938499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-75368749876099448822011-07-05T16:21:36.531-04:002011-07-05T16:21:36.531-04:00I wouldn't argue with your point, Rob, and eve...I wouldn't argue with your point, Rob, and even cop to it on page 122. I play a ton of GMless games and the same situation emerges - the guy who understands the procedural engine best facilitates, keeps an eye on pacing, offers choices, picks up some of those duties a GM would expect to be responsible for. I think this is natural and it doesn't bother me. A group of brand new players will experience the same phenomena, probably with the guy who bought the book and is only half a step ahead of the group on the learning curve. I like to think that the learning curve, at least procedurally, is mitigated by the game's instructional design, but that's an open question that doesn't address social issues at all. I've played a *lot* with n00bs, but I have no anecdotal evidence about how a table full of people new to RPGs approach Fiasco. Probably in some exotic, weird and wonderful way!Jason Morningstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07658337818464887156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-39853216872274939072011-07-05T16:09:47.154-04:002011-07-05T16:09:47.154-04:00I have found that new players are often most comfo...I have found that new players are often most comfortable with a game that has a lot of structure to it, which goes a long way toward explaining why the various incarnations of D&D have always done better than their rules-light contemporaries. It's not that a new player is any less creative than an experienced one, but being put "on the spot" to decide what they should do next is intimidating. Games with more structure tend to have concrete options that give new players a straight-forward choice; skills to check, items / powers to use. <br /><br />Lacking that concrete structure, you're right that a facilitator who makes new players feel safe and encouraged is very useful.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1678761812929125529.post-14757522363678153172011-07-05T14:26:54.112-04:002011-07-05T14:26:54.112-04:00I also consider Fiasco brilliant, and I had great ...I also consider Fiasco brilliant, and I had great games with it both times I played. In practice, yeah, it needs a facilitator. This is probably also true of boardgames in practice, but I think your response would be that a boardgame facilitator doesn't have to be in the boardgame cognoscenti: it's just the person who's read these here rules.<br /><br />I think the potential issue with Fiasco is something I wrote about on 20 by 20 Room a month or so ago: it's potentially vulnerable to stalling out for the same reasons improvised theater is vulnerable to stalling out unless you've trained past those vulnerabilities. Both the games I played in had a facilitator and, perforce, a trained improviser to help jolly people past any reluctance to commit in the moment. And for the second-game postmortem, the facilitator and I agreed that we might've had a stronger session had he and I sat diagonally across rather than adjacent.<br /><br />I don't know the extent to which playing poorly for a group of true n00bs (to RPGs AND improv) would a) amount to not playing at all - progress grounds to a halt - or b) inspire people to "try this again, but better" vs. giving it up after a single try.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08018705513587424497noreply@blogger.com